Thursday, October 9, 2008

F451 Fishbowl #2

Welcome to our second formal fishbowl discussion! This discussion will cover topics in Fahrenheit 451 up through page 80.

Outer circle: Remember that you're aiming to make about five quality comments; be thorough in your responses, and bring in textual passsages when you can. Enjoy!

129 comments:

AprilH said...

I think a python fits because pythons can be dangerous and many people fear them

annies said...

I agree with Jason that the python is a metaphor for the rules.

annies said...

I also agree with April. People are scared to break the rules like they're afraid of pythons.

CASSIE D said...

pythons constrict you and kill you very slowly the more you try and excape the pythons grip the harder is squseses

what is the symbolism behind this

elizabeth k said...

i agree with Jake i think that the snake could represent freedom

Aaron H. said...

I think Jason makes a good point about the snake representing the government, because that is what the government is doing with books.

AprilH said...

I think they are saying that they are just happy even though they are not. They probably just think they're happy even thought they don't know what happy really is.

alenav said...

I think that everyone has a sense of unhappiness. Everything in ou life isn't going to be perfect and theres always going to be something that we aren't completely satisfied with. Even when we say we are happy we may not be like Jason said.

meghank said...

I think the snake represents the fact the Kerosene is coming out of the hose like the snakes poison comes out of his fangs. The snakes poison can kill someone and the Kerosene is used to "Kill" the books and all the information and stories they tell.

Jake H said...

Cassie: I think that the sybolism of the snake is that the rules they have are constricting them and killing them slowly.

AprilH said...

I agree with cassie because the python is probably slowly squeezing all of the happiness out of people's lives

CASSIE D said...

happiness is all in compaison




this world looks happy on the outside but when we get in to the individual lives we realize that it is very dull

elizabeth k said...

i agree with aaron and jason about how the government is like the snakes because it constrics you from reading books like the snake constricts you.

Aaron H. said...

Cassie- I think that the symbolism behind the snake is the government not letting people read books.

annies said...

I think that the people don't know what real happiness is. Because, like everyone is saying, they were born into it so it's all they know, like Alli said.

Shay N said...

Could the python be used because it is different than other snakes it really isn’t considered a "normal "snake since it doesn’t bite

RachelK said...

I agree with Meghan. The snake is poison for whoever it bites, and the kerosene is kind of like poison to the books. Either way, it's like taking something good and turning it into hurt or loss because of poison. Some people are so close with their books, so for them to be burned, it's like the person being poisoned in a way.

NowlanS said...

On the comment about Ray Bradburry using the pythnon metaphor, I believe that the pythin is used always as to be a bad thing. As john said the python is always used with some bad thing happening in Montag's life.

meghank said...

I think that the people in this society think that they are happy because this is the only way that they have ever lived they have nothing to compare their lives to. They don't know what unhappiness is so they think that they must be happy because they have never experienced anything else.

annies said...

I think that the government sent someone to kill Clarisse because she was smart and questioned, and like Conor said, she was corrupting their society.

BrianW said...

i think the snake reprsents the goverment or whom ever is comtroling this socity constricting the people into a utopia

AprilH said...

I agree with Jake and Ellen because the gov. might have just taken her and moved her somewhere else. She was so inspiring to Montag that I don't think she would go away so easily.

CASSIE D said...

ANNIE
i agree how can these people know what happiness is if they have never had it

Shay N said...

Why does Mildred change the subject so quick when she discovers the book under the pillow.

elizabeth k said...

i dont think she would commit suicide because she was too much of her own person

CASSIE D said...

what if books were illegal and drugs were legal

annies said...

I don't think that Clarisse would commit suicide because she had a different percpective. She would want to stay alive because she wants to spread the word about how the world used to be.

NowlanS said...

Also about if they were born into this world or if they saw this censorship happen, i believe that some people, older people were alive before the banning of all books. On p. 75 in our book it says that the old English teacher Faber was alive during the tranformation into censorship. It said he was their forty years ago when the last college for the liberal arts shut down.

alenav said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
meghank said...

I don't think that she committed suicide for the exact reason that there were lots of people in the society doing that because she was nothing like anyone else. It just doesn't make sense for the author to make her commit an action that lots of other "normal" people were doing in the society because he tried so hard to portray her as different.

annies said...

Would we call the firemen firefighters, even though they start the fires, or do we call them firemen because they start fires?

alenav said...

cassie, we would all be stupid illeterate and high all the time

elizabeth k said...

i think cassie has a good comment about what if books were illegal and drugs were legal. our society would be so different.

CASSIE D said...

ALENA
i agree we would all be so out of it
we would never accomkplish anything

AprilH said...

I think that he was holding the book out in public because he knew he was going to burn it and his captain knew he had it anyway so he probably thinks that he wouldn't get in so much trouble.

Macy said...

I agree with Elizabeth. I dont think she would commit suicie. She might of just wanted attention or something.

Angelica--- You make a good point. Even though they have the bible, i still dont think they know what they're worshiping.

KaleighD said...

I agree with Megan, going back to Jason's question whether or not they were born in this society. If they were born in this society, then they probably dont know that there's something different out there and they think that they must be happy because they don't even know what real happiness is because they have never expierienced it.

BrianW said...

why did the book intoduce clarssie before mildred if they just kill her

Kristin L said...

Bring it back to the book--what are the consequences of a society in which books are illegal? How does it affect the characters?

CASSIE D said...

QUESTION do they have religin in this book?

Shay N said...

Annie I think that they are called firemen because they start the fires and they don’t really know what a firefighter truly is.

AprilH said...

Shay- I think she changes the subject quickley because the captain was in the room and she probably thought that he found out he would burn her, her husband and their house

meghank said...

I don't think any of the people in the society have enough information or imagination to have an opinion on religion. They only know what the government wants them to know. You have to have imagination and faith in order to believe in a religion and I don’t think many of them have that, if any.

Kristin L said...

Good question, Brian--I think you wrote about this a little on your quizzes. Why is Clarisse a significant character? What might she represent?

Aaron H. said...

I think that the women who burned herself toubled Montag because she did it willingly and all the other people got arrested.

NowlanS said...

I agree with MeghanK. I do not think Clarisse would have commited suicide. She was too happy with life and was not in that way of thinking. She thought about life differently and therfore i do not believe she would of commited suicide. I believe the govmernment killed her because she was too powerful. She actually thought.

adam c said...

I don't think that they do have a religion because you need something to get all the rules for a religion so without books what would they use?

BrianW said...

I agree with nile i think he's had the books then once he met clarssie his mind opened up and had the guts to read them

Kristin L said...

I agree with Nowlan. In this society, knowledge and curiosity truly are power, and they've been drained (almost) entirely out of the people's souls.

AprilH said...

cassie- I don't think they have religion because they haven't really talked about it. Everyone is supposed to be equal. Now a days religion usually splits people into groups so they probably got rid of it so no one would be different

Macy said...

I think somehow Clarrise makes Montags life better. That's why she is so significant. She probably changes his life in a good way.

NowlanS said...

I think that Montag started taking books once he started to listen to clarisse. I believe once his thinkning changed he decided to obtain some books and gain the knowledge that clarisse had.

meghank said...

I think the parts of the book are kind of like the before and after. The after will be once he has read the books and he is beginning to create his own ideas and think of things differently. It could also be the change in society as a whole.

CASSIE D said...

i agree with brian and nile
without clarisse the story would have no where to go she lead him to explore books and question things

RachelK said...

I agree with Nile too. Once Montag met Clarisse, it seems as though his opinion has changed on reading books. I guess he saw how open her mind was and how adventurous it was, so maybe he was thinking why not?

Aaron H. said...

I agree with Brain and Nile about having the guts to read the books. I also think that Montag slowly gathered a the books over time. from different fires.

elizabeth k said...

i agree with nile and brian that Montag's mind opened up when he met Clarisse. he wanted to know.

annies said...

I agree with Jake, that our society changes every day. Not always in a big way, sometimes in very very small ways. But all the small changes could add up in the end.

AprilH said...

I also agree with Nile because Clarisse was probably that shinning light that helped him have the courage to look and do what was illegal.

Shay N said...

Clarisse does make Montags life better she makes him open his eyes to things he wouldn’t have noticed otherwise.

RachelK said...

I agree with Macy. In this society, Montag was kind of stuck in the world of the government. I think when he met Clarisse, it made a change in him for the better (to become more open to books, and use his imagination).

CASSIE D said...

people sacrifice freedom for protection so maybe there was a world wide catastraphie wich lead to people living in fear one thing lead to another.......

NowlanS said...

Question: Why do they allow tv programs and scripts of tv programs to continue if they wont allow books? Can't tv have some of the same effects as books sometimes?

Aaron H. said...

Nowlan- It talked about the books that Montag had taken before he met Clarisse so he would have already had them.

michellev said...

I think that most of the people alive in the book now was born into society and most of the people who weren't born into it have died. it seems like most of the people in this book are used to their surroundings. Maybe these people had been brain washed, like when Mildred got "new blood" the next day she was pretty much new, and day she had forgotten what happened about swallowing all the sleeping pills.

KaleighD said...

I think angelica's question about why there are two different parts was a very good question. Unlike most other books where it has many chapters. Are these two different parts symbolic? I agree with Jake, i think that the differnce between The Hearth and the salamander and The Sieve and The Sand is that it is about Montag and how he changes throughout the book because he chagnes alot and in a way is a whole new character.

meghank said...

I think people would have let the change in society happen because something happened to make them fear the old society. They have said multiple times in the book that they don't want to go back to the way that things were which gives the idea that they are afraid of what happened to cause the change.

elizabeth k said...

i agree with Nowlan dont the TV shows have the same effects as books since they are all fictional characters?

NowlanS said...

Aaron- Where does it say that?

RachelK said...

You know Nowlan, I don't know. Maybe it's because they think that tv is more of a brainwashing thing that people just stare at 24/7. Maybe with some things shown on tv are more real and are actually happening, it can't allow someone's imagination to run away.

Kristin L said...

Cassie's comment is interesting...how much freedom does our society sacrifice for protection? Are we headed down a similar path?

annies said...

A little random. But I think that the people who lived through the change were killed in order to keep peace. Since the government didn't have them in the way, they could start an entire new society.

Shay N said...

Nowlan they allow tv and scripts because they can control what is on and what they say.

BrianW said...

well if the whole world cant read book then how do they record history

RachelK said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
RachelK said...

Brian- What I think is that in this time in this society, history doesn't seem to matter at all.

Conor R said...

I think Montag wants to change this society, he beleives that he already is being told what to do and being forced to live this perfect life. Therfore when Faber begins telling Montag what to de he thinks this is all just the same as the life he already is living and although they are trying to change this society he is still being told what to do.

JasonV said...

I think that people might hold onto books as a reminder of how things used to be. I doubt anyone would do it as a statement so much as do it for themselves, because in the insane world they live in the books give them a little sanity.

CASSIE D said...

brian

i think people will always want what is prohibited and i think that is why they keep their books
plus it is such a big part of society i dont know how they could deny them

Jake H said...

Montag probably wants to change the society because he wants the freedom that the sociey had before. I think he wants the people to be happy. A lot of the people are unhappy and maybe by changing the society he can change the peoples emotions.

ellenj said...

I think people keep books because they want to be different and they want to know what the world is acutally about. But at the same time they dont since they do not want to get in trouble or face the reality of there society like Nicole said.

Emma said...

I agree with Brian, Why do people keep the boooks if they are so afriad of them at the same time. For example, when Montag showed his wife's friends the books they all freaked out and one of them cried. Everyone in this society are scared.

nilec said...

i think people hold on to books because they have heard of what books are about and are interested in their contents. Everyone curious and some people might be willing to risk their lives for their curiousity

CASSIE D said...

CONOR AND JAKE

i dont know if montag wants to change society...yet
i think at this point he just wants to learn and discover

NowlanS said...

I agree with connor. I think that Montag felt as if Faber was controling him just like everyone else was. He wanted to have his own original thought and did not really know how to have original thought

JasonV said...

I think that it very well could be societies fault that they have banned books, but I believe that once book banning got to a certain point the majority of people would have said enough, but somehow they made the new society. I feel that someone had to have pushed the all-out ban of books more than just the general public while still making them believe it was their own doing.

Emma said...

I think that the people are more afriad of the government than the books. They are probably afriad of getting in trouble.

angelicao said...

I also think that the society brought it against themselves and then the government just helped it along. I also did recognize the peom Dover beach that you made us read before.

Conor R said...

I dont think people are very intimadated by the government. To be honest im not sure if there is much of a government. So far in the book it seems as though the most powerful form of government right now are the firemen. They seem to uphold this so called "justice system" and keep people from reading or having books. If indeed the firemen are the government then i think they are somewhat respected howeever as seen thus far in the book, not everyone follows these laws which they are forced to uphold.

Jake H said...

Brian:

I have to disagree with Cassie. I think that people want the books because they enjoy what is contained in them not because they are illegal.

ellenj said...

I agree with Cassie. I think that at this point Montag is trying to learn and figure things out, and ask why things are the way they are. Rather than rebelling and changing society yet.

angelicao said...

I don't think Mrs.Phelps understood and that's why she cried. She realized that she doesn't have the thinking compacity to understand that comlex of a poem

Emma said...

I think that Mrs. Felps might have cried because maybe what the poem was about reminded her of something that makes her sad. Wasn't she the one who had lost a couple of husbands to death and her new husband was going to war? So maybe the poem trigered some of the old memories of her husbands and made her upset even though she may not have realized why she was so upset.

vick said...

I dont think they are afraid of the books,
I think they are afraid of change, and it would be change if books were acepted again. Also i think they are afraid of the government.

CASSIE D said...

JAKE


i think i agree with your statement more than mine

JasonV said...

I have no idea why Mrs. Phelps was crying. When I first read the passage I thought she was crying because she understood it and it moved her in a good way but then her friends said that books were horrid etc. and I wasn't so sure anymore. I think maybe she was crying because it was so horrible but I have never seen anyone cry when they had a book read to them because they didn't like it...

KaleighD said...

I agree with Cassie, they probably only want to keep books because they know that the government or whoever is in charge of this society would dissaprove. I think they want to keep the books because maybe it makes them feel different from one another and because the people who are in charge of this society run everything else in their life, they just want to be in control of one aspect that is involved in their lives.

Conor R said...

Cassie-
I have to disagree with your response. It seems to me that thus far in the book, changing this society is all Montag is trying to do. Montag hates this society and i agree does want to expand his knowledge and learn through these books, but dont you think that by learning from these books he is already changing the world in which he lives in?

ellenj said...

I also agree with Angelica that people of this society brought their lifestyle upon theirselves. By creating a society just to try to avoid conflict they make themselves so focused on materials and having fun and not having books that they don't even realize how bad their life might be.

CASSIE D said...

why do people have sucha lack of emotion they seem to have no personality

JasonV said...

I wonder if Mrs. Phelps feels like children are that horrid because of her own beliefs or societies beliefs, and why would she have had kids anyway if she hated them so much? It's kind of like in third world countries where all they want is sons and no daughters because daughters are viewed as lesser beings to men.

Jake H said...

Connor:

I have to agree with your point about the government. I think that the people are more afraid of the firemen since they can burn the citizens as well as their possessions. The government doesn't take part in what they do or they haven't yet.

angelicao said...

I was shocked when the women started talking about thier children like that. It seems like love doesnt exsist in this world anymore. Also I couldnt believe it when they started talking about why the elected thier president. It seems like looks and material possesions are their main thoughts

Conor R said...

I agree with Jason. I also thought she felt a connection through this poem and she was crying because she was so touched. However you are correct after Montag finished she was very angry at him and even had the nerve to say she would never set foot in his house again!

alenav said...

i think that people may be afraid to be themselves and show there personality.

nilec said...

Conor- i don't think ha is changing the world by just reading the books. i think he needs to take what he learns and tske some sort of action to gain followers. He alone cam't change the whole society.

NowlanS said...

I agree with connor again. Montag wants to change society. It is obvious that he tries to change society around the pages of 80-100. He wants peolpe to start THINKING for themselves and that when they talk to have substance in their words. They were just speaking mindless babble

Emma said...

I think that it is really sad that most of the people don't care about thier children or they don't want to have any. I agree with Nicole, The people in this society don't really communicate with eachother. They talk but they don't talk about actually meaningful things or anything actually important. The main thing they seem to care about is thier "Family".

ellenj said...

I agree with Jason about Mrs. Phelps. I think she was crying maybe because she thought it was so awful that a fireman was reading a book. Also, i think that she might not have understood anything that was not material or that did not make her happy. Like Meghan said, the women in the book are so materialistic that they do not even understand anything else except the tv or their belongings. They even think that having children is such a pain, they only think about themselves.

Allie~J said...

So ellen what your saying is that they choose to break the law by reading to escape their own terrible life in the society?

JasonV said...

I think that there is a higher power like a government that caused the banning of books to be put into effect because religion is disbanded as well as books and I doubt people would have gone to such extremes as to ban all religion or discredit religions' sources because of simple dislike of literature.

CASSIE D said...

yesterday we said there was no religin and now we are more religius than they think they are.

what if their idea of religin is different than ours we believe religin is following ideas and bettering our selfs and the world
mabey their idea of religin is following the goverment and fitting the "mold" of society

allison t said...

To me it seems like they don't have feelings, like when they talk they don't have meaningful conversations or anything.

Jake H said...

I think that the religion disappered with the bible. I think they lost all their rememberance of worship and that by "dressing down" Jesus they mean that they haven't taken care of their responsibilities to Jesus. The materialistic attitude i think is a lack of happiness. I think that since they have everything and they are not happy they need more and don't want to lose what they have.

vick said...

I dont think that it is brain washing, however the more kids who are born this way, and brought up this way, the more people dont know about the past.

alenav said...

i agree with cassie, i don't think that they truly know what religion is.

ellenj said...

Allie,

I was saying that people who do read, like montag, are realizing about how their life in society is not that great. And yes I think they know they are breaking the law by reading. Like how Montag is worried that beatty will find out he has books.

Conor R said...

Nile-
I agree that Montag alone cannot change this society however do you not agree that by reading these books he is breaking the law and becoming more intelligent then this society allows. By breaking the expectations of this society he is indeed changing the outlook on the world and if he finds a way to spread this knowledge he can indeed begin to change this sociey singlehandedly.

Allie~J said...

I think the society isn't brain washed but that they just din't remember or they were never told stories of what the society used to be about.

Emma said...

I agree with Angelica, it seems like looks are more important to people than the actual person. Also there is no love in the society. The way they talk about thier children shows how they really don't care aboout other people. Also when they were talking about all of the husbands they have had and how thay wont cry if thier current husband dies. The people in this society are really self centered.

vick said...

I dont understand why the people arent being taight about the past, maybe not in schools, but y grandmas and grandpas.

NowlanS said...

Cassie- That raises an interesting question, What is relgion? What could be classified as religion? Could these laws and ways of thinking actually be religion?

jamieG said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
ellenj said...

I agree with Allison,
The people are so wrapped up in themselves and un-connected to the world that they are almost like robots. The two hospital men who pump Mildred's stomach are really good examples of this.

allison t said...

Also, like Cassie said, yesterday we thought there was no religion but today we are saying otherwise. I think there might be a religion but their definition of religion is different then ours. They believe in only materialistic things and we believe in something spiritual.

CASSIE D said...

VICKI

i agree this is so wierd but remember that clarisses uncle told her and now she is gone, mabey all the people who know about teh past are in hiding or taken away by the goverment

Allie~J said...

But also I think ellen they read so they can escape into another world which would be the book like have you ever gotten stuck in a book thats good and you stop and wonder where you are cause you forgot that you were even reading? maybe thats what the people do when they read.

allison t said...

Ellen brought up a good connection from the beginning of the book!

jamieG said...

I think maybe their is still love, but because everything that represents love like book for instance, are being taken away from them.. they are loosing their ability to love because it is not highly thought of in their society