Tuesday, October 14, 2008

Fahrenheit 451: Fishbowl #4


This discussion will cover pages 102-139. Remember to show professionalism in your work and to bring in textual passages when possible. You're aiming to make around five thoughtful contributions to the conversation.
Enjoy!

131 comments:

Nicole said...

Montag transformed from a regular citizen with quirky thinking to a full-blown, hunted down, criminal.
His mind-set is still pretty much the same, it's just that the situation changed a bit.

allison t said...

Montag didn't change during this section, I think everything around him was changing and he was starting to realize his true self.

BrianW said...

he changed by totaly disobeying the sociteys rules. because clarisse transformed his mind

RachelK said...

I agree with Ellen that Montag never really changed. He did have it all built up in him, and then once he met Clarisse, he had the chance to let it out and try to make a change.

AprilH said...

I think having Faber in his life will encourage him to think more and do what he thinks is right.

meghank said...

I would have to disagree with Nicole;
I think that Montag was always a criminal on some level because from the very beginning he had books and he thought differently than everyone else. I don't think he was ever a regular citizen.

Aaron H. said...

I think that the old lady with the books burned her self because she was so attached to her books that she didn't want to part with them. And because she didn't see the point in living any more.

nilec said...

I think montag Changed because he has been secretly going against he law for a while but now he is putting himself out there and taking more action.

NowlanS said...

I believe Montag's mindset has changed. It was changed by Clarisse. He actually thinks now and wants to start this revelution because the government and society will not alow them to think and have original thtought. Sometimes to be a hero in a society a person also has to be a villon.

Allie~J said...

I think that Montag has always been different and that he was somebody who was different and that the goverment tries to get rid of but that he never really knew if he was or not untill he met Clarisse.

elizabeth k said...

I think that now that Montag has Faber in his life he will want to explore more and now that he knows a little he will be really curious and want to know as much as he can. I think that the more they tell him he cant read the books the more hes going to want to know.

AprilH said...

I agree with viki because i think he could encourage others to do what they believe in and get everyone on board.

JeniC said...

Montag had secrets, he had emotions, he was under pressure of society. It was only so long untill he "cracked". He's still the same man, he's just more determined now. He, as a person, did not change, but his morals and actions did.

allison t said...

I agree with April on the fact that having Faber in his life will make him put forth an effort to do what he believes is right.

meghank said...

I think that it is possible for one person to change the society because by changing people’s minds the ideas would spread. While he may not be the one specifically spreading it to every single person he would be the one who started it.

Allie~J said...

Brian I dissagree with you I think that he's always been this way he just never really thought about it untill he met clarisse.

michellev said...

I think he can change a few peoples minds into agreeing with him and when all of those people get together and convince everyone by showing the truth, because if only one person did that everyone would think he was fake, but more as a group more people will believe it.

Nicole said...

Meghan: It's true he wasn't a "regular citizen" but people didn't know what he thought. They didn't know that he didn't like society, and so the world viewed him as a normal person.

Aaron H. said...

I agree with Nowlan but I think that Montag always was this way before he met Clarisse but I think that this change was deep down and he just didn't know it.

Conor R said...

I agree with allison, Montag alwyas had the same type of thinking he continues to show thus far in the book. Montag alwyas was curious about the books and despite him being caught, his house burning down, his wife leaving, and accounting murder he still thinks the same way. Displaying that his surrroundings are changing his curiosity is not.

AprilH said...

I agree with Jason. Faber is starting to come out but he still needs to do things on his own.

Allie~J said...

I agree with Elizabeth that the more they tell him that he can't do something the more he's going to do it and the more he wil do it.

RachelK said...

I agree with Jake. One person couldn't change a whole society, but they (Montag) could talk to one person and change their mind and then they could pass it on to others. I think that for Montag's situation, he's going to have to let himself out and then work on helping other people.

BrianW said...

i agree with jason that faber needs to come out of his shell and help out montag

elizabeth k said...

I think that Montag now has the motivation he need to change society but I dont think that he can do it alone but I think that the society needs a change.

Nicole said...

I know people can make a change. One person becomes five which becomes ten which becomes a hundred, and so on. But I don't think that in this book that society will change because of Montag. I think that maybe he's going to run to a different country or something like that.

Conor R said...

I think montag's meeting of Clarisse did not change Montag it just brought out a side of him he never knew he had. Montag clearly always thought that he could be happier, and the world could be better he just didnt have a grasp on this emotion until Clarisse brought it out for him.

AprilH said...

I think Faber's role is to guide Montag to do things that he would never do. He sees Montag as someone who is brave.

Allie~J said...

I agree with what jason is saying that yes one person can change the world it just takes more people whose minds were changed by that one person so it's like a domino affect

JeniC said...

Nicole; "It's true he wasn't a "regular citizen" but people didn't know what he thought."

I completely agree with you. The society in this book pushes the idea that someone opinions should be kept a secret.

NowlanS said...

I believe Faber is a huge help to the cause in an indirect way. He never seems to want to be in the spotlight but he stil helps in his own ways. It seems towards the end of the reading he started to be less cowardice and started to be a stronger person

RachelK said...

I think that Montag can't change this society by himself because of how brainwashed and horrible it has gotten. Saying that Montag can change this society in particular by himself is like saying that one person can change the world by themselves.

BrianW said...

i think that faber is more there to guide montag because montag had more conections to books because since montags a fire men he can find book and steal them

elizabeth k said...

I think Faber is there to break him out of his shell and to get him thinking. I think that he is more of Montag's moral support now that hes on track.

michellev said...

I think that yeah that yeah these people don't know about happiness cause they are missing something like the quote on pg. 82 "I don't know. We have everything we need to be happy, but we aren't happy. Somethings missing." I agree they think they have everything they need, but deep inside they are missing something they just aren't exposed to what will make them happy, so they don't know about it.

nilec said...

Although Faber has the same beliefs as Montag. But i think Faber is a lot like everyone else in the community because he is risking Montags life to protect his own. He is selfish like everyone else.

Shay N said...

i agree with nicole, how people arnt going to change in this society because they are so used to how books have been treated and viewed for so many years.

Nicole said...

I agree with Jason. But Montag didn't leave Mildred, Mildred turned him in and left him.
But, yes, all this came about from him not having the job and his wife. Montag says that when you have nothing you will take bigger risks because you can't lose anything. If he had those he wouldn't have gotten to this point.

Allie~J said...

I still don't get why Montag killed Beatty. help.

Aaron H. said...

But Faber is going away to the printer in St. Louis so he is going to leave the comfort of his own houes.

Conor R said...

I think Montag needs to stay by Fabers side. Faber is much older and wiser than Montag, however Montag is younger and fit for the job at hand. I beleive that the reason niether of them were able to change the world themselves is because they were lacking in the strengths of eachother. Now by gaining all traits necessary for the job the men..together can change this society.

AprilH said...

ya i agree with michelle. Many of these people are missing something and they don't know what. They seem kind of brain washed and are told what is happy and what is sad. It kind of seems like they have no emotion because they care if someone dies.

Nicole said...

Alli: Beatty had been attacking Montag with words and then later on with his fists. Not to mention Beatty had found the ear-piece and would have traced it back to Faber. So to protect himself and Faber, he killed Beatty.

meghank said...

I think that it was because he was living with Mildred and working at the fire house that caused him to do what he is doing. The way he was living his life was what made him second guess how things work. I also think that he couldn't do what he is doing now if he was still living with Mildred because she just held him back although she was the reason he started asking questions in the first place.

Aaron H. said...

Allie- Montag killed Beatty becasue Beatty was making him mad.
And becsue Montag needed to get away

NowlanS said...

Allie- Montag killed Beatty because there was no other way out. Beatty was only stopping Montag and was insulting Montag. It said in the reading that it seemed as if Beatty was asking to be killed.

AprilH said...

i also agree with conor. Together the men can do it. They can't do it separately.

elizabeth k said...

I agree with April. The people in this society seem like they have no emotion or atleast that someone else is controling there emotion.

Conor R said...

Allie, i think Montag killed Beatty not only because he would turn Faber in and ruin htry to dis life goal, but that Montag sensed Beatty wanted to die. Around page 130 when Montag started the replay the scene in his head he noticed Beatty did not disarm him and he continously joked with him and did not try to save himself.

Allie~J said...

Thank you nicole.
I think that maybe Beatty set Montag up to kill him so maybe he did.

Aaron H. said...

I think that Beatty did let Montag kill him because I think that Beatty had books and he couldn't live with himself anymore.

RachelK said...

I agree with conor too. In this society, in order to change it, many people need to come together to change it. This society is so tough, that no one can do it by themseves.

allison t said...

April and Conor make a good point that both Montag and Faber have traits that make them able to change the society, but they have to work together or they won't be able to do it.

nilec said...

I dont think Beatty was committing suicide, but I think Beatty knew that Montag was going to kill him and was using that as an escape from the position he held. It could have been his way of supporting Montags beliefs.

AprilH said...

Allie- I think Montag killed Beatty first of all because he was threatening to find and kill Faber. Also I think that Montag was getting upset by what Beatty was saying to him. It was like he was teasing him.

Conor R said...

If killing was so common in their society then why was Montag so shocked when he was almost killed by the kids in the car?

NowlanS said...

I find it interesting that Beatty is a frieman and is so against reading and Montag but he quotes books all the time. Beatty seems to know some quote from every book. He always twists them to make them support his opinion though.

Shay N said...

I think Betty set him up cause he acted like is was no big deal that he had books, then he turned it around on Montag

elizabeth k said...

Even if beatty wanted to die why was it Montags job to kill him?

Nicole said...

It makes sense that he would. Most of the time when people try to kill themselves, they get saved somehow when they wouldn't want to be. So being murdered by someone else would leave less of a possibility of living.
But why would he have want that? Well, he quotes all these books, so he's obviously read them. So maybe in the depths of his mind he thought differently.

Allie~J said...

I agree with connor and that alsi I agree with Cassie that maybe he has books at home and reads them and thinks he can get away with it because hes the "captain".

BrianW said...

i agree with jason because i think that he was going trough the same thing that montag went through because he knew quotes and said it was ok to read the book for a little

JeniC said...

I don't think Beatty's death was a sucide. He may have enjoyed provoking the other firemen, but if he really wanted to kill himself he would have done it in a different way. There was no way that Beatty could have known for sure that Montag would kill him. If he wanted to kill himself he would have done it in a way that he knew would work.

Aaron H. said...

Nowlan that is interesting. I think that Beatty had books and he was a hipacrit

RachelK said...

I agree with April too. It's kind of sad how in this society, everyone's emotions ar esoooo messed up. It takes a huge part of life away. Life is to be enjoyed with good emotions and feared/dealt with with bad emotions. These people can't experience that.

meghank said...

I think that Beatty wanted to die, he pushed Montag to a point he knew would push Montag over the edge. Beatty was not such a mean person earlier in the book, and the fact that all of a sudden he turned into this mean person who knew way too much about the society than what was really allowed. I also think that he didn’t think that he was strong enough to do what Montag was doing and so instead of helping the people that he didn’t agree with he didn’t want to be a part of it at all.

AprilH said...

I don't believe they really liked each other in the fist place because they didn't even remember when they met and they didn't talk to each other like they cared.

Shay N said...

I dont think Mildred ever liked him because it never talks about her saying she loves him. She could have just used him to get her tv

michellev said...

I think Clarrise was a person who just opened his eyes to what he hasn't been exposed to before

Pye said...

I actually think that Montag made a major change during this section of the reading, but I also think that he has been transitioning to this change since he met Clarisse. The way I look at it, everyone in this society was born with creativity and the ability to think for themselves but as they went through school and their young lives they lost the ability to let it show. I think now that Montag has Faber in his life and he is teaching Montag about the world before his time and is teaching him the value of reading Motag sees how stupid everyone he used to talk to is. He finally realizes how crappy of a life he was living and he knows that he has made a major mistake by going through his life as a fireman.

Nicole said...

I think that in a way, he misses what it once was, before all her attention was for the parlor families.
'Cause, in Chicago they fell in love, and were happy, just something changed over time.

AprilH said...

No i don't think they had feelings for each at all because they never remembered when they met and she turned him in to the fireman

Allie~J said...

I don't think he ever had any real feelings for her I think he thought of her as more of company but I don't think she ever loved him.

ellenj said...

I think Montag misses having his wife's company and the idea of having a wife but afer he realized that she didn't really love him or even enjoy him he didn't care as much and he decided he had to move on.

angelicao said...

I agree with cassie that convinced himself that he loved her because he wanted to have a wife like everyone else even though he didnt actually love her.

Emma said...

I don' think that montag really missed his wife. I think the reason that he was still upset though is that it bothered him that he didn't even really miss her. He probably liked the idea of having a wife but didn't really like her as a person.

JeniC said...

I think Montag cared for her, but as more of a friend then a wife.

Pye said...

I think that way back when montag might have been in love with his wife but after he met clarisse and started reading he realized how stupid and iggnorant she really is

RachelK said...

I agree with Nowlan. It seemed that Montag just liked the concept Clarisse was trying to make to him. I don't think they were really in love at all. It seemed like just an aquaintance.

ellenj said...

I agree with Michelle and Cassie that Clarisse and her uncle really cared about each other and they showed montag how to do that and made him realize that his life was really empty.

Macy said...

I think Montag and Mildred never loved each other. Since they lived in a different society, I dont think people knew what love was. Plus Montag didnt really mind or care that Mildred left him.

Allie~J said...

I think the great big creature is his idea of the future for this society and how it has become a big dark figure or a black hole and ow this s ociety is at a point of no return almost.

Jake H said...

I think that he didnt love her but he wanted to still have her for himself. I think that he didnt want to be alone

Nicole said...

The black creature I think is the country-side. It has no city lights to give a color other than black. It would make sense since he went into the explanation of the hills and such.
But I agree with Jake, it could be his future. He will no longer know what will happen unlike how it was in the city.

RachelK said...

I agree with Emma. To Montag, he liked the idea of having a wife, but could never seem to love her as a person. I think him and Mildred were married maybe cause they wanted ot fit in with everyone else. Their love wasn't really true.

BrianW said...

i agree with nowlan about clarssie being the only one in the society that loves.

AprilH said...

I think man destroys what we have and we keep destroying things and not realizing how much we are hurting our society.

adamc said...

I think that the creature is the evil inside us that wants to take over and have us not do whats right but what it wants us to do.

KaleighD said...

I agree with April, I never thought that Montag and Mildred were truly in love. They are very different people and she also pressured Montag into being a fireman just for money. The book also says that they even sleep in separate beds but.

Pye said...

Granger is trying to say how man destroys himself every once in a while. the world keeps getting better and better for us untill one day we all just crash and burn

Emma said...

I agree with Jason, I think that when he saw the "Creature" it was the land. I think it represented all of his problems and he then realized that his future may be dark and not so good because of all the things that have happened. He wasn't thinking about much when he was in the river but when he got out it hit him ow different his life was about to become.

ellenj said...

I think the connection to the phenix is that in the book the people dumbed themselves down so much and made everyone exactly alike that they were pretty much no one and they had no real value in life and they were saying that they had created a dead socitey

Macy said...

I agree with Ellen that Clarrise and her uncle showed an actual genuine love. And that Clarrise's family cared for one another. I think thats a reason why Montag changed his views on different things in life.

Nicole said...

The media lies A LOT.
And it's not like we would ever know? They could get away with it and even if someone had evidence no one would believe them.

adamc said...

I don't think that they were in love because in this society people really didn't get to know each other and i don't think that they really know what love is anymore its almost like they have lost site of it.

nilec said...

Brian, I think that Clarisse does know how to love, and that is one one the reasons i think the government got rid of her. If she started to spread the love that could change the way people behave and alter the society.

Allie~J said...

THe society might lie to everyone so that they can make evryone still feel happy but that if they were to start telling them the truth then thats when all hell would break loose and there would be evn more suicides so I agree with cassie.

AprilH said...

I think the media lies to their society all the time because they just want the people to believe what they say. Also like Cassie said they have a lot of power. So if they show that someone is not following the rules the media will show the people what will happen to them.

ellenj said...

I think the media in our world is sorta similar to the idea of media and government in the book. They "caught" Montag just to make everyone relax and feel better and in our world people want to hear and be cartain things and the media will do almost anything to get that story or show us what we want. Like making people feel safe, and making people think they are winning or whatever

angelicao said...

Man does destroy himself. That man is like a pheonix and burning itself down so that it can start again. There was hope in what Granger was saying because he said that maybe some day the world wouldnt have to burn itself down and start all over again. But in my opinion I think that it will take man a very long time to get to the point of not starting over and maybe the world will never reach that.

Emma said...

I think that the media lies to the society a lot just to keep people happy. They want everything to be perfect and whenever somebody does sommething wrong there has to be justice. They don't want the people to think that there are flaws in the world. they want to make everyone feel safe and believe that their world is perfect. Thats why they faked catching montag.

RachelK said...

I agree with Cassie that the media is pretty controlling throughout the whole book. It's kind of wrong and weird that everyone is so consumed by the media, that they consider people who are the tv screen or work with on tv their family.

BrianW said...

like in our society like in a contest tv show that they put a commersial right brefore the results

nilec said...

Pye, so do you think the bombs destroying the city is like the bird burning itself? will the society start over and get better and better?

RachelK said...

I agree with Nile that Clarisse does know how to love. When she met Montag, she showed him like a friendly sort of love. It also seems like in marriage, people don't get married for love, they get married so they won't be lonely and so they can fit in.

Emma said...

I agree with Casey that people fear rthe unknown and are afraid of change. So now that they don't know what's going to happen next and everything is new they are more afraid.

nilec said...

April, I agree. I also think the media lies or hides things to either protect themselves or protect the lifestyle they encourage people to live.

ellenj said...

I think the quote is an example of how people are afraid of new things but in the end if you take a chance or stand up for what you believe good things can happen. Like change is not always bad, and just because people have never read or learned before doesn't mean they cant start now.

Nicole said...

I agree with Cassie. People definitley fear reality. Why? Because then people realize that not every story ends with "and they all lived happily ever after." They don't want to see all the bad stuff in life. They just want to ignore it and get on with everything else. Kind of like how America was ignoring the World War for so long.

JeniC said...

Alot of people think it's wrong for the media to lie to society. But do you think there are any cases where they might lie for the better of society?

Pye said...

nile- yah i do think that the pointless wars that the society is fighting is exactly like the bird because the bird just blows up for no apparant reason and this country fights wars for no reason at all

nilec said...

Emma, I agree that people would be afraid, but i also think people are curious and most of the time look forward to change. It is a chance to change things for the better.

Allie~J said...

I agree with jason that being a fireman that narrowed the way his life was and the way he saw things.

RachelK said...

If Beatty wasn't killed, then the rest of the story would be totally different. Beatty seemed so angry with Montag that something much worse than burning Montag's house would be happening to Montag. Then the book wouldn't have ended the way it did. I think that maybe Beatty's death made Montag feel just a tiny bit more comfortable.

angelicao said...

Mrs. Leclaire had a good point when she said that sometimes the media does try to scare us so that we will listen to them. Most people dont care unless it is concerning them or something that can impact them, so fear is a good way to keep peoples attention

AprilH said...

I agree with Jason that it opened Montag's eyes to what real life should be.

RachelK said...
This comment has been removed by the author.
Pye said...

i think jason is missing the point, bradbury doesnt care about that it might be too cold to be floating in

Nicole said...

I think Montag feels a little bit of relief when he realizes that he won't burn books again.
He thought himself as a criminal for burning them, and now he is released of that burden.
Like Jason said, it was a positive thing for him.
Which relates to the floating down the river thing. Without that weight he feels like he's floating. And when you're floating down the river there is this sense that time is slowing down.
But also, water is the opposite of fire, it creates instead, like how he's created this new life for himself.

Emma said...

I think that it shows him that he is changing and that now hee is becoming a better person. I agree with Jason i think that now that he isn't a fireman anymore it has opened his mind to everything whereas when he was a fireman he was very closed minded. He never really thought about what he was really doing or what was going on in the world.

Pye said...

what is dragon ball z?
anybody know?

nilec said...

pye, i agree, but its not that the bird burns for no reason, or we fight wars for no reason, it is just for a reason is unknown. Which comes beck to media hiding things. they can hide the real reason we are fighting a war and the bird can hide the reason it burns itself.

adamc said...

I think there are sometimes when it is ok for the media to lie to us like when a war might happen where the people just don't need to know because all they would do is freak out. And it really wouldn't help anything

Nicole said...

Pye: Dragon Ball Z is this TV show. Ever heard of Anime? That's it.

AprilH said...

I think that means that fire can be used for other things besides what he does with fire. Fire can cook food or warm someone or burn something. Montag realizes that fire can be used not for just destruction.

BrianW said...

i think he relizes that fire is meant for warmth at the end of the book and distution in the begining,symbolicly speaking

Shay N said...

This was the first time he had enjoyed fire for what it is and was using it for his benefit instead of destruction

Allie~J said...

SO maybe the symbolence is that it depends on how you use fire. If you use it for distruction then it burns but if you use it for warmth and life then it warms. But also through out the book fire is destruction and it hurts people but right at that point in the book the look and smell of the fire has changed because it's not desroying it's helping.

nilec said...

Adam, i agree, the only issue is when people find out the truth somehow that cause cause a worse outcome than telling people in the first place. People would freak out and it would be crazy.

meghank said...

I don't think that Montag ever loved Mildred in the traditional way at least. Everyone in the society had a spouse and a house and a job and everything that goes in a house, for this fact it made things seem like that's just the way it is. Even if you don't love the way your life is with everything you have in it you just have to live with it because it is the way everyone lives. Nobody ever questions that they love their husband or wife because it isn't a normal thing to do, they follow the way everyone lives and never wonder what else there is. This connects to the fire also because Montag never questioned that fire could be used for something useful or good because he never knew any different. During this passage when Montag is floating down the river it is almost like he is learning everything he ever forgot over again as well as learning new things. Montag was brave enough to explore the unknown, he never knew if he really loved Mildred because he never felt anything other then that so he had nothing to compare it to. In this society you can never say that anyone loved anyone or knew how things really worked because they never knew any other feelings or ways to use things. The people felt safe with the things they knew and never felt the need to explore anything else. Montag wondered and that saved his life in the end.

Aaron H. said...

Nile and Adam-
But wouldn’t the media still lying to us is bad too. I don’t agree with the media lying to us because they can just tell us the truth in a non panicky way. I agree that some people will freak out, which could be just how those people are. I think that lying to a society would cause more panic then not. In F451 there part about the fake Montag being caught is a perfect example, “He screamed. He screamed. He screamed…The search is over, Montag is dead; a crime against humanity has been avenged.” This is a perfect example because the society thinks it is safe but really if Montag was dangerous then the public would still be in danger.